Against the grain: Defying Societal Norms Through Faith

What if standing against societal norms was the ultimate act of faith? Join us as we uncover the extraordinary journey of Mary Magdalene, who transitioned from personal shame to becoming the first witness of Jesus’ resurrection. We explore her profound transformation and the courage it took to share her testimony in a world dominated by societal labels and expectations. This episode sheds light on Mary’s bold defiance and strong faith, diving deep into the internal and external struggles she faced to deliver her powerful message.

We also reflect on how we can embody Christ through our everyday actions, taking inspiration from the stories of David, Moses, and the symbolism of marriage. Whether it's facing giants or recognizing our dependence on God in our daily lives, we emphasize the humility and unexpected ways in which divine strength manifests. Listen in as we discuss how the faith-filled actions of biblical figures serve as models for us today, encouraging us to view our lives through a spiritual lens and embrace the divine strength that guides us in all we do.

Read the Show Notes: sojohub.com/coffee114

Chapters

• 0:00 Interpretation of Mary Magdalene's Courage
• 12:07 Reflecting Christ in Everyday Actions

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to the May coffee chat. It's the middle of May, guys. It's the middle of May, so today is our, it's billed as our coffee chat, and so this is a time for you guys. Okay, all right. Well, let's bring Tara on, hello.

Speaker 2: 0:23

So my question has to do and I don't have my study in front of me but when I was doing the part with Mary Magdalene and I didn't quite understand the perspective of how she was being interpreted I'm probably not getting the right terms, but like strong and courageous probably not getting the right terms, but like strong and courageous I didn't. I guess I didn't look at it like that, I just looked at it as that she was a first witness to things and then she told people, but I don't understand, maybe, the perspective that I'm supposed to have on it. I guess I don't see it as like a courageous act. I see it as important, but I guess I don't see it for the same lens and I just wanted to hear more from both of you on that.

Speaker 1: 1:09

Well, let me, let me go to that section in the study and let's let's look at it. For me, the courage comes in the societal norms of the day, right? So if you look at her encounters with Christ that are mentioned here, it talks about her transformation, and her transformation was more than just physical healing. Her transformation was a transformation, obviously, of the soul, and so she actually became that first witness. And when you think about, in society at that time, a woman's testimony was not considered even like a valid thing, so they could easily be dismissed. One of the things about her is that she boldly stood for the one who delivered her and saved her right, and she went against what society may tell her to do that.

Speaker 2: 2:21

Jennifer, you know one thing about that which we do not have the full context of all the stuff that goes behind this but the disciples believed her. There is nothing that indicates that there was any like you could interpret that as like she was a peer. You could interpret or misinterpret anything. Not you, particularly you rhetorical. Interpret anything, not you, particularly you rhetorical.

Speaker 2: 2:43

I'm just like, it's just to me. I'm not saying it was a non-event, but it just flowed without issue. So I didn't and I know women were different, perceived differently, but in the context of what happened there was no hesitation of them believing her. So you know what I mean. So maybe outside of their ecosystem, sure, people would not trust her, but she was part of the group, part of that group of women that was with the disciples. So I mean, it was just interesting to me and I bring it up not, you know, to be controversial, but it was just I was trying to understand perspective on this because it was like not an issue, because they were all on the same page, you know all of them. For some reason they believed her, without question.

Speaker 3: 3:32

Well, tara, I totally see what you're saying and I kind of have a slightly different angle than Jen does.

Speaker 3: 3:40

But to me it was what happened internally and inside her, because and Susan said they had to see for themselves my answer is she had to see herself differently and identify as somebody completely different.

Speaker 3: 4:00

And when we give witness to something or we share our testimony or we, you know, talk to somebody else about something that's happened to us, it's kind of the outward expression of what's happened inside. And to me that was a really big deal because, like she had a reputation and there was, I'm sure, a lot of shame that came with that, a lot of shame that came with that, a lot of mental baggage. I mean, just think of us as women, when we have a reputation or when we know someone sees us a certain way, whether we have a label on us or we have childhood baggage or whatever it is that can hinder us, it puts us in a box and I think that this act from her was like her seeing herself differently, her taking herself outside of that box. So that was kind of the answer and the thought that I had. Oh, that helps a lot.

Speaker 2: 4:57

That perspective helps a lot for me to understand. Yeah, thanks, yeah.

Speaker 1: 5:01

And also if you, I mean if you read that part of the story, she didn't recognize him at first. So it actually took, in my opinion, a lot of faith and courage for her even to recognize that, because at first she wasn't thinking that about a resurrection, right, she was thinking more that what he was a gardener, I'm trying to to remember, yeah, a gardener, um, and so it wasn't until, you know, wasn't until he spoke to her that she actually realized who he was. So and that to me, that was an act of courage and faith too. Just, I mean that I believe, yeah, not just a matter of being a woman and not just a matter of being transformed, not any, but just the mere fact of like believing that there was such that this resurrection was possible.

Speaker 3: 5:57

I mean, and kind of believing that she was equal to the men in the group, you know, I mean, I think that's really pretty stunning yeah yeah she did take action, despite I mean, even though she was part of the group she easily could have been ridiculed for this belief that jesus is alive.

Speaker 2: 6:16

I mean, you know that that that was I mean, I think it was my perspective when I was reading it. But you know, once I shift a little like, yeah, I, I see all this and understand it and I'm glad I asked the question because this will really cement this into my consciousness, so, yeah, so I'm I'm glad, I'm glad I brought it up.

Speaker 1: 6:34

So yeah, thank you.

Speaker 3: 6:37

Well, can I just add one little thing on that too, and this is probably just my perspective. But, like, men have always intimidated me and that is probably because I've had like some poor experiences in the past. But I'm just thinking, like from a cultural perspective there and and we don't know, this part of the story, like, this is just my thoughts and I'm not equating them with anything scriptural or what equating them with anything scriptural or what, but like just to think about a woman who was kind of substandard in that culture because of her background and her history, the fact that she had the boldness to do this and that they accepted her word, like you pointed out, tara I think that that is really just so significant to think about. And and even the fact that maybe that act wasn't bold and courageous in and of itself, but the community and the acceptance that she had from the community gave her the boldness to do that, that's significant, you know. So, anyways, just lots of little different thoughts.

Speaker 5: 7:47

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 7:49

So Susan has just a generalized thought. That is just. I mean not even related to the cultural aspects and for Anna being a woman. But how many of us tell others of our encounter with Christ? You know, even now I mean it just, and I know it was different because they were she was walking with him and she knew him. But we today also, you know he is in us and we are in him, and yet it still takes courage to be able to tell others of our encounters with him.

Speaker 1: 8:23

All right, sarah's making some points. Two things Recused from seven demons, she may have been considered crazy. Even today, mental illness is looked down upon and people not trusting her. Christ healing her healed her reputation too. So, yes, but she was. She did get healed from multiple evil spirits. It says she had a past, a serious past. And then, number two where were all the men that morning? They were hiding because they were scared, and she had tons of courage to go to the tomb in the first place. You know what? That's a really good point too, sarah. The women went to care for him because he was just killed. He was just killed. So just even having the courage to stand with him, even in death was in and of itself a courageous thing. That's a great point. Okay, all right, madeline, hello.

Speaker 4: 9:22

Hey, I thought about some of these people that we've studied about, and it's not that they listened at that moment, they've been listening all along and they were ready for the moment when it came to them. I mean, that was kind of like that's why we need to stay in god's word yeah because, because you don't know that moment that's going to change everything for somebody else's life or your own.

Speaker 4: 9:50

But anyway, I just liked having this study to have been a part of, and to me that was the faith in action, when you've been hearing all along what God is saying and you're ready for the moment.

Speaker 5: 10:05

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 10:06

Yeah, and just to add to that, I really like how you said that that was. That is the action A lot of times. That is the action of faith for us is to listen, because it takes expectation. We expect that God's going to speak or we expect that he's going to have use of us, that we have something yet to do. So I think that is definitely a huge act of faith is to always be listening. So really, really encouraged by that comment.

Speaker 1: 10:34

Madeline, you know I almost hesitated to put David in the study to begin with, because I really don't like when we focus on David facing his giant, because it's just really not. That's not what the story is about. I've said this so many times. The story is about David being a picture of Christ and it was actually, you know, Christ's faithfulness. But there is a component as well to David having to stand up in that moment, as Madeline was saying, take that action in that moment to face that giant, and in doing so he became that picture of Christ. So I don't think that we necessarily the entire application of that story is we need to, you know, stand up against our giant. I think that the application of that study is that we have Christ who does stand up against our giants, but and in that moment David had to be faithful, he had to be courageous, and we're going to have those moments too. So I think it's a two. You can go off the ditch in either way. So I think having that balance is good.

Speaker 3: 11:51

So if you've done that part of the study, Well, and I know we've talked about typology before and how all of these stories in the Old Testament, they paint pictures of Christ in the New Testament and I think that's really important. If you don't know anything about that, I think we have some archives in the academy, that in the library, that you can go look up. But I think to your point, jen, in order for us to represent Christ, because we are to be his ambassadors and his representation here on earth, in order for us to represent Christ because we are to be his ambassadors and his representation here on earth, in order for us to do that well, same as David, we do have to take action. So my son got married about six weeks ago maybe, and so my husband and I have been meeting with him and his new wife to go through like new married couples, counseling, whatever. So one of the things that we mentioned that we talked about was how marriage itself is a representation of Christ and the church and how that you know, in order for us to do marriage well, we have to understand that it's a representation of Christ and his bride, and we just talked about how important it is to see things through that lens.

Speaker 3: 13:13

So when you're encountering issues and you're encountering struggles to go back to that, like how is this supposed to represent Christ? And and I think it is the same is true for us when it comes to bold action like how are actions supposed to represent Christ and how, how am I being called to represent him? Um, even in something like cleaning the kitchen or you know what it can be, anything I mean, we are supposed to do all to the glory of God. So, whatever it is that we do, whether it's a big, bold action or a small, mundane one, it is to reflect the awesomeness of God, which is what it means to glorify him. We are to showcase his awesomeness and all that we do. So just kind of bringing in that element of okay, whatever my action is, it is to represent Christ the same way David did, coming back full circle. The same way David did in facing the giant you know he was. He reflected a type of Christ, and we do, too, in our actions.

Speaker 1: 14:21

Mm-hmm Ramona says, what I think of from that part of David's life is how God chose him, not by outward appearance, which was man's way, but by what was inside of him, what was in his heart, and we see that over and over again in scripture too, right, even in even the way Christ was born, I mean. But putting it back down to the basics of it is not man's way. Man would never have allowed the king of the universe to be born the way Christ was, and so that's a great point too, as we're thinking about it, and that also can help us, as we are, you know, going through our daily lives and representing Christ. As AJ AJ is saying, it's not necessarily going to be the way we think it's going to be, or certainly not the way the world thinks it should be, because God's ways are above our ways, and we see that in Scripture over and over again. So that's another good, just a good takeaway from that story from the life of David. Yeah, all right, sarah.

Speaker 1: 15:27

The story of Moses and the burning bush a play on words. Moses asked who am I to rescue the Israelites? God answers later that his name is I am who I am. Reminds me that I don't have to be someone to obey God and let him use me. I am usable because of who he is.

Speaker 3: 15:46

Yeah, you totally flipped that question around, didn't he? Instead of who am I, he's saying I am. So yeah, I love that insight too.

Speaker 1: 15:58

Yeah, I actually love that whole conversation. If you haven't had a chance or if you didn't do the part about Moses, just go and read the whole conversation Moses has with God at the burning bush. I mean, it's almost funny. It's like, no, I can't do this. It's like literally a bush is burning and not burning up and God is talking to you through it and you're arguing with him about your skill level at speaking. You know, it's just, it's so human, it is so real that it gives me so much encouragement. Right, just that whole interaction gives me so much encouragement when I say that to God and God does turn it around on us often, doesn't he? We don't really have excuses when God calls us.

Speaker 3: 16:53

And he's got such a sense of humor. You know just the way he does it.

Speaker 5: 16:59

Yeah Again, it's not ever the world's, it's not ever our way, it's always his way when I read David facing his giants, I think when I look at the things in my life, they feel pretty small, they don't feel like giants. Am I maybe not going deeper like I? Like I go to God with everything, but they don't feel like giants, they don't feel that I can't handle them. So can you kind of put some words to that, ladies?

Speaker 3: 17:47

Well, I mean, my first thought is is we don't always have to be facing a giant. You know, I don't think you have to create one if it's not there. I think we all do have times and seasons, though, when we do feel feel like we are facing something insurmountable, and that really is where we can really draw encouragement from David's example in and find courage to face those things that do seem insurmountable. But, on the other hand, we need to live with a John 15 perspective. We can do nothing without him, even the smallest of things. So, even though it may not be a giant that we're facing, we still live with the knowledge that we can do nothing apart from him and his power, and just living in that weakness and that level of dependency on him, you know, and knowing that that's a safe place to be. So I don't know if that was kind of where you're headed or not, but but it's okay. I don't think you have to create a giant if you're not like in the middle of one.

Speaker 5: 19:01

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 19:02

I also think. Number one it's good to see you, debbie, by the way. But also I agree with that. As far as you know, there's always like, if you think circumstantially, think of the horizontal plane there are always going to be times in our lives when we're on the mountain, we're on the valley top or somewhere in between Right we were facing the giant or we're kind of cruising along, we're feeling pretty good about things. You know, I think that temporarily, that is always going to be where we, where we are, we have those moments and I mean it's by the grace of God that we're not looking into the face of something that seems insurmountable, right, which is also by the grace of God that we can overcome that.

Speaker 1: 19:48

But I think another perspective on this if you're not feeling that in a temporal kind of way, I don't know, the first thing that comes to my mind is let's think of it a little bit more on a little different, like a metaphorical kind of plane. And if David, if David is the type of Christ in this story, then Goliath will represent our sin and the enemy and we can always look at it at this moment of okay, I may not be in a place in my life, where I'm, you know, got financial issues, health issues that are insurmountable, relationship issues that are insurmountable. Many of us are, but maybe you're not in that place, which is awesome, but you can still have this perspective of yes, but, but there is this giant, this sin that has to be vanquished and has to be conquered, and that is what the death of Christ on the cross did for me. And so you can look at the story in that way and recognize, come at it from a little different perspective and remind yourself every day that you're facing your own sin. I mean every day. And now you've been forgiven of sin, you've been saved, but we still are fighting it. That's sanctification, right. So we still have to continue to fight that. And that is in and of itself a quote unquote giant that, through the grace of God again, through the strength of Christ in us, we battle every day. So I don't think it has to be.

Speaker 1: 21:30

I agree with AJ. It doesn't have to be some big, testimony-worthy giant that you're facing right this minute. It's just the mere fact that you're fighting your sin. I mean little sin, big sin, it doesn't matter. You're fighting your sin right now, and we all are, and we're finding that sin. We're slowly growing in Christ likeness. We're becoming the light on the hill. We are a light on the hill. We're illuminating the beauty of Christ through our lives, and that's big. That's big and that's a battle.

Speaker 3: 22:08

Yeah, that's a really, really good point. I love that. And Sarah says pray for those of us who have multiple giants right now. If you find yourself in a position where things are kind of smooth sailing, remember that there are others who are going through a harder time, and take that as an opportunity to pray for others.

Speaker 1: 22:27

Yeah, yeah, I mean we're either moses trying to keep our hands up, but we're erin helping support them. Yeah, we're. We're in some, in some capacity. We are one or the other of those. We're either we're we're either exhausted or we're the support and we're needed in both of those roles. Yeah, that's right, I enjoyed these discussions. We don't, aj, and I never know what's going to come up in these discussions, so it can make us a little bit nervous.

Speaker 3: 23:04

Yeah, this was really good, though, and, tara, I really appreciate you hopping in at the beginning with the question, because that just was perfect to get things started.

Speaker 1: 23:13

Okay, all right. If that is all, we will close in a quick word of prayer. Dear Heavenly Father, thank you so much for this day. Thank you for your blessing of allowing us to gather from around the world, around the country, and from all the different locations to be able to see each other face to face and speak with one another and learn from each other. Thank you for a desire to know you and a desire to understand who you are through your word. Thank you for giving us your word and for our ability to be able to even read it. We do not take that for granted. I pray that, as we enter into this next coming up week, that you just allow us to focus on you, remove any obstacles to Bible study and to growth in you, and allow us to just be that light on the hill, to know you more, to glorify you in all things and become more like Christ. In your name we pray Amen.

Speaker 3: 24:19

Bye guys, see you next week.